How to put your values first for your wellness and your work- with Tom Tapper

Tom Tapper is the co-founder and CEO of Nice and Serious, a B Corp-certified creative agency committed to only making work the world needs. He joins us for a special live episode recorded at the Festival of Happiness in November 2024.

Tom discussed his agency’s ethical approach to work, including how his team uses the Moral Compass to decide whether briefs fit the agency’s ethos, and how this approach helps to support mental wellness – alongside other emotional support actions at Nice and Serious.

Tom also opens up about the challenge of being a new dad and how he found solace through community.

Key takeaways:

• When leaders discuss their mental wellness challenges, it encourages others to seek emotional support
• A Moral Compass framework is good for morale, creativity and mental wellness as well as an ethical approach
• Early parenthood is really hard so reach out as early as you can for support

Resources mentioned in this episode:

NABS All Ears https://nabs.org.uk/about/impact/all-ears/

NABS Managers' Mindsets https://nabs.org.uk/training/managers-mindsets/

Nice and Serious https://niceandserious.com/

Moral Compass https://moralcompass.app/

Transcript

Louise Scodie 

Hello everyone. And welcome very much to a special live edition of the NABS Podcast. I'll start by explaining who NABs are. If you haven't heard of us, we are the support organisation for people working in advertising, marketing and media. We're also really happy that today we're one of the beneficiaries.  

We're being sponsored by the Festival of Happiness, very proud about that, with the Endometriosis Charity, which I was very happy to see because I'm a long time sufferer, survivor rather, of endometriosis, and some might joke a long time survivor of NABS. I've been working there for six years.  

Right, so every week in the NABS Podcast, we talk to leaders across the industry about how they support their mental wellness, how they support the mental wellness of people who they work with, any challenges they've been through and any practical tips and insights they have for the rest of us that we can learn from. And as I said, this is a really special edition and will be involving you as well with a Q&A at the end, which I'm very excited about.  

So with me, we have Tom Tapper. Tom Tapper is the co-founder and CEO of Nice and Serious, which is a B Corp certified agency that makes creative work that the world needs. Since 2008, Tom's worked with hundreds of purpose driven brands and charities, including Unilever, Innocent Drinks, Greenpeace, IKEA and Nike. We can also add NABS to that list. And the agency helps people to creatively communicate the positive impact that they're having on the world. It's an absolute delight to have you, Tom. Thank you very much. Welcome, Tom. 

So how are you doing today? 

Tom Tapper 

I'm doing really well today. I had a nice start, dropped the kids off and had a nice little coffee and enjoyed the session just now. So positive mood. 

Louise Scodie 

That is remarkably chill for someone who's the dad of six-year-old twins. Congratulations. So listen, let's jump straight into it. Can you tell us about your own mental wellness journey and if there's a particular challenge that you've had to face and work through? 

Tom Tapper 

Yeah, no, I mean, you know, to be, I've been running the agency now for 16 years. I set it up when I was 22, straight out of university. That's a story in itself, but there have been more highs and lows over the last 16 years that I care to remember. But broadly speaking, I've been fairly lucky in that I haven't had any kind of serious mental health issues during that time. But... 

I mean, as any one of you in the audience will know, like running your own agency can really test you over the years. And, you know, there have been some moments where I've really been on the edge of breakdown. And, you know, I mean, as with all these things, just like day-to-day operations, fine, you can handle it. You can put out those little fires.  

But there were always those moments where, you know, I remember we took the decision to set up an office in New York back in 2015 because we'd had a few successes. The other co-founder went out there, which meant I was alone. We did that for four years. I mean, if any of you haven't done that, just think before you do it. We went in hot. We were naive. The cost of running a New York office is phenomenal. And it nearly took us to the edge of bankruptcy and obviously tested friendships.  

I was on my own in the UK. My co-founder was out there. And that was brutal. Having to manage both a friendship and a business partner and seeing the numbers and holding out to the last moment until you have to either pull the plug or, you know, it could have gone either way. I mean, that was a huge emotional stress during that period there.  

But, you know, if I'm honest, probably the biggest challenge has just been going through parenthood and running an agency. 

I wasn't expecting twins. They came along. My wife works as well. And I was very much thrown in the deep end. And I'm sure as any of you will know, if you've got kids, that was exhausting. And having to show up as the leader at work on one, two hours sleep was just brutal. And I don't think I quite, because you kind of go through it almost like a bit of a zombie. 

And you your eyes are twitching a little bit, but you've got clients to deal with, you put on a brave face, you know, standard issues. And I think it was about 18 months in where I was like, I was like, it should be getting fucking easier now. And it just wasn't. And there was this real moment that comes to mind where a friend of mine was involved in this thing called Talk Club, which was about mental health for men. And it was these talk sessions where you start each session. 

And you say, how are you out of 10? And all the men in the room go round and give their number and use it as a conversation point. Anyway, I didn't, I wasn't involved in it, but because we had an office, I got asked to host it. And I was like, fine, do my friend a favour.  

And so I obviously showed up because I was hosting and sat in this circle with a bunch of 10 strangers I've never met in my life. And just going around the circle, I was like, you know, getting drinks and stuff. And it came down to me and they were like, how are you out of 10? And, you know, I was like, I don't know what I said, like four, I was shattered. And it's just like, broke down in tears in front of these strangers. Because I think it's just the moments like that, often when you're with strangers, not with your friends, you're not picking up a face, you're just like, fucking mess right now.  

And I don't think I'd ever really kind of said that. Sometimes you just realise those moments, you're like, I'm on the edge here. And I hadn't asked for help. And that was actually a moment when I was like, I've got to sort some stuff out, because this is going one way. And if I want to be good dad, be a, you know… 

It's honestly it tears me up now. It was like a really, really tough period. 

Louise Scodie 

I am so sorry to hear that and I have to say I completely, completely empathise. also, although obviously acknowledging your pain through all this, love the fact that you're being that open about it because it's only ever the mums in my personal experience who are really talking about that getting to the breakdown point and I was there as a mum so I totally feel that. I had times where I was up in the middle of the night thinking it would be easier to be dead than it is. It's so hard. So thank you so much for sharing. 

What did you do when you realised you were at this really challenging point to reach out and get that help, what did that look like? 

Tom Tapper 

Yeah, I think it was a number of things I did, parameters I had. I was very lucky at that point to have a leadership team around me that I'd grown quite close to. We were all going through similar things at the time. So I had a really strong support network. I was lucky to have a co-founder. I think a lot of people that set up agencies just do it solo. I don't think I could have done it, to be honest. So there was a support network I had there.  

It felt a bit self-indulgent at the time to carve out time for myself, for things like exercise, for things like getting out, doing other things. And that really, really helped, like having those boundaries. Because I just, if you're doing like putting in a long hour, putting in a long day, getting home, putting the kids to bed, waking up in the night, getting up in the morning, there's no time for yourself. And it can sometimes feel a bit self-indulgent to be like, I need to go for a run or I need to do something. And so carving out that time, I think really helped. 

And also I think having that trigger point made me realise that I needed to talk to my friends about it, talk to others who knew what they were talking about to give me some of that sense of guidance. And just kind of with all that in place, I realised it wasn't going to be bloody easy. There's an element you think, OK, if I just do this, I'll be happy. Like, no, it's a tough time in your life. You've got to accept that. But what can you do just to kind of give yourself some guardrails? 

To help you through those difficult times. And I think just having a few of those things in place just got me through those times. 

Louise Scodie 

How are you doing now? You're better than before today. 

Tom Tapper 

Like a hundred times better. you know, and I know there's this thing with parents where everyone like competes to whose, whose life is harder. and when your kids get a little bit older, like around six, seven, like it's fundamentally easily like, know, it often gets to that point where she was like, know it's not easier. It just gets different. No, no, you, you get sleep. Like they can dress themselves in the morning. So like that side of things massively improved. Having more time socialise, you know, do all of that sort of stuff, which is super important for your mental wellbeing.  

So I'm in a much better place now, feel a lot stronger, but I think going through that period made me really reflect on what we could do as an agency to help the mental wellbeing of our colleagues. 

Louise Scodie 

That's really interesting. Tell me a bit about that. Mental health in general at Nice and Serious. 

Tom Tapper 

Yeah, I think you know just take taking a step back a bit, I think as agencies we're really good at building brands, like creating our own brands, like creating like an institution of your agency and it kind of operates above the people but I think when you approach mental wellbeing, you've got to accept that you know your agency is nothing more than a bunch of people like you know and you live or die by the quality of those of those people. 

And, you know, I'm just, I got into it because of the creativity and just a massive believer that, you know, if you can create an environment where people feel safe, you know, psychologically safe, whatever you want to call it, like you will get better work from them.  

Like if you've ever been on the creative side, like I was, like my best ideas came from places where I felt safe. could make mistakes and I wasn't going to be shot down for that. And so I think we've approached it with that principle that like if we create a safe environment where people are free to make mistakes and can bring themselves, their full selves to work, we'll get better work at the end of the day.  

So we approach it from that respect, but I would sort of break down what we do into three areas. So, the first one is I feel like first and foremost, people need to feel comfortable saying they've got a problem, going back to my personal experiences, and I think the way to do that is to mirror that in leadership. If people see the leaders as a bunch of hard-nosed bastards, they're not going to come to you with a problem, right? So it starts with talking about our own problems as leaders, and our managing director Duncan, he's had some quite serious mental health challenges over the years. He's very open and honest about that. So if you set that precedent as leadership, your team will feel comfortable talking to you about it and they won't bury that away. 

Louise Scodie 

So in what scenario would Duncan then share that with the team? 

Tom Tapper 

So often it will be on all-staff meetings. We might have a Monday morning meeting. He might talk about something he's going through that time, or he might recount moments in the past. So if there's Mental Health Awareness Week or something like that, he'll use that as an opportunity to talk about his own experiences to give others the permission. They're not gonna be isolated or chastised if they share their own problems too.  

So taking those moments, regularly reminding them that it's okay to share, it's okay to have problems and then to talk about it. So that's really cool, because if people aren't willing to come forward, they'll just bury it away. So I think there's that side of it.  

Then there's the side of the kind of crisis response stuff. I think we've got about 10% of staff are trained as mental health first aiders. If they see a problem with a colleague, they're there and they can give the support they need or at least then pass them on to someone who can give professional help. So that side of it's really helpful.  

And then also just having easy access to it. So we use an organization called Spill, which is like a free access to mental health professionals. And even like before people log in to the Monday morning meeting, they have to just do a quick spill, like how you are out of 10 or whatever. And if it drops below five, they get a prompt, which is like, would you like to speak to someone today or something like that? So it's just like normalising that process. So if people aren't in a good place, it's easy to access mental health support. But I think you've got to recognize that that is ultimately you're at that point treating a symptom, because something's already happened there and you're providing support in a moment of crisis.  

But the bigger issue for our industry is - how can you stop people getting to that point? Because I think if you designed, if you were to design an industry that would negatively impact people's mental health, you would design the creative industry. It's just like everything about it is set up to crush people's mental health. 

Louise Scodie 

Crazy work hours, client-facing demands, what else would you add to that? Long list. 

Tom Tapper 

Unless you have retained clients, you're constantly pitching for your existence over and over again. Sometimes you're pitching against 20 other agencies, and you're doing work for free. And then you're also delivering the day-to-day work to keep the door open. And your fundamental product, an idea, it's like someone can judge that as great, someone can judge it as rubbish. So it's like constant moving. 

You know, it's just, it's really tough to be in our industry, right? So, you know, we can't change a lot of that, can't change pitching. Like, you know, that's just how it works in our industry. It's quite hard to change the business models. I would love to do more like value-based pricing or things like that, but that never works. You're always like, you know, being pushed down on price, right?  

So I think knowing that that is just how the industry works, it's then like, how can we create an environment acknowledging that, that allows people still to live a reasonably, you know, happy and productive life, right?  

And for us, that started with, you know, doing things like not expecting people to work late or on weekends. That is not an expectation. That's a rarity. We tried, we did the trial of the four-day working week.  

Louise Scodie 

How did that go?  

Tom Tapper 

Like best year of my life. But like we did, we did like, we did four, four days for pay. So like and a reduction of hours. So you basically just had a day free at the end of the week. Best year of my life. Haemorrhaged money. It was just like, fundamentally the business wasn't set up. We're a people hours business. Like, you know, you had 20% less billable time basically. And I know the theory is you're more productive, but fundamentally it didn't allow projects to shift around as easily, you know, all of that sort of stuff.  

So, but without doing that, we've now.. we wouldn't have ended up settling on a four-and-a-half-day week, which we now do. Overnight, we went from four days to four and a half. Profitability came back overnight. But if we hadn't have done four days, four and a half, we might have not seen as possible. So now we close the agency on a Friday afternoon. That's a massive help. It just gives people more time to do life stuff on a Friday afternoon.  

Flexible working hours, all of that stuff just creates an environment where people are less likely to burn out. And I think that's as important as providing the crisis support if someone does burn out. yeah, big believer in that side of things. 

Louise Scodie 

Absolutely and all of that is sounding really positive and helpful. This is also the bit where I would point out that if you or your staff are experiencing any kind of challenges then come to NABS, we're here to help so we're an extra resource for you.  

Now, there's something really interesting about Nice and Serious, which is what I would say almost an ethics-first approach, where you build ethics into every aspect of what you're doing. You have a special tool that you your prospective clients and clients to use called Moral Compass to make sure that you're all on the same ethical track. 

How do you ensure that the business still gets to thrive when you could potentially be turning away business with this model, and when you're asking clients to work in a certain way with you? And why are you doing this, and also do you think that this is an important part of the mental wellness piec,e as well as staff are less likely to feel compromised working on clients that might make them feel triggered or uneasy? 

Tom Tapper 

Yeah, no, it's a really, um, and I'm kind of almost like conscious, like talking about being like a purpose-driven agency almost sounds like a 2024-cliche in a way, like, and the reason why we did it is I, both me and the co-founders were both environmental scientists before we set up the agencies. We come from a very unusual background for this space and all we wanted to do was make creative work about environmental issues.  

So, so that was like the founding reason of the agency back in 2008. So, but like, any business, you start growing, you get a bit more success, and then you start needing to feed the beast because you've got teams, you've got salaries to pay. And there was this real moment, I think it was like more like 2015, where we were working on some pretty big accounts, big brands, we were still doing like sustainability stuff, but we started to get questioned by the team about - this doesn't feel like what they signed up to when they came to Nice and Serious. And we ended up having a bit of a workshop with the team on a weekend away.  

And we sort of came up with this idea of the Moral Compass where everyone in the team gets to democratically vote on the briefs that we work on based on the extent to which it aligns with our purpose as an agency. So everyone gets a vote, it's anonymous, and everyone gets an equal kind of say in it, and it gives us this score, a percentage alignment score, and if it scores 50% or below, we decline the brief.  

If it's 51% or above, we accept the brief and we can respond to it. So for us, it was a recognition that as an agency owner, the pressure of paying salaries and all that sort of stuff is just so exhausting that you end up just accepting briefs just to relieve anxiety because you just need the work, even if those briefs aren't quite right for you and you know it deep down.  

But actually having democratised that process is liberating, because then it puts the decision to everyone. And it might seem radical. But fundamentally, your team aren't idiots. They know that clients pay for their jobs. So they're not just going to start failing everything. But also, having that diffuse sense of responsibility means that when those briefs aren't right, they will call it out. And even though it might feel painful, because you are saying no to short-term profitability, I think what I've realised over the years is every time you say no to one thing, you're giving yourself space to say something yes, to say yes to something that is more aligned with your purpose.  

And when you say yes to the projects that are right, you make better work, and it creates a virtuous circle. Because you deliver better work, it has a bigger impact, and you win more of the work you want to be doing. And we've all been there, where we've taken the jobs from the lucrative accounts that you're like, this is going to be a nightmare. It exhausts the team. It's never as lucrative as you thought it was. And then you end up just picking more of that work up that you don't want to be doing.  

So it can feel quite... it can make me feel nervous because you're saying no to something, but overall I've always found it has been the right decision where we've said no to stuff. So we probably turn down about four briefs a year, I would say, as an agency that just don't feel right because of the Moral Compass. And we've had that now for almost 10 years. So yeah. 

Louise Scodie 

When you turn down the briefs, do you explain why? 

Tom Tapper 

Yes, which is... can be... a really awkward conversation. Some people will, you know, tell you to f off, you know, because it's quite an offensive thing, really. I don't always say it's called the Moral Compass, because then the implication is you're immoral. And often, like, actually, the people working for those businesses are lovely people, well intentioned, but you're also thinking about you as a... 

Louise Scodie 

What kind of responses have you had? 

Tom Tapper 

Speaker 2 (20:02.924) 

I don't think... We’re there to make creative work the world needs. Does the world need this? Is it going to do any, or actually, is this a bit of greenwashing? Is it window dressing? Are they not really making the change you want to see? it can be difficult. Some people really embrace it. I would say, I'm a big believer of a principle isn't a principle until it costs you something, And you should see the power dynamic with clients, how it changes when we tell them we're voting on this. 

Suddenly, you go from one of five agencies scrambling over each other trying to the brief to like, wow, can I give you more information about the impact? That wasn't the strategy, but that's what we found. And I think we have much stronger, richer relationships with our clients now when they know we're willing to say no to stuff, because then you're a partner, not some service provider that they can just throw scraps of meat at. Yeah, it's a really, we didn't expect that, but that's interesting. 

And I'm sure for others, it's pissed people off and they'll never come back to us. you know, that's fine. We can't work with everyone. yeah. 

Louise Scodie 

So what I'm hearing is because you're working in this ethical way, people are more engaged with the work and you're providing better work. So that's a high-performance piece kind of bolstered there.  

Tom Tapper 

Absolutely.  

Louise Scodie 

What happens when there's a brief that goes through that maybe scored a 51 or a 52? It's just scraped through and so there will be people who aren't massively enthusiastic about working on the project. 

Tom Tapper 

That has happened recently and I'm currently in that conversation where we're actually reviewing the Moral Compass at the moment. We've gone out with a team survey about how it's used and there's often a bit of debate around it if something scrapes through. There's often people raising questions about it, but we've had some people try to protest over whether they want to work on something and my current response is, we are a collective of people, we voted this way. 

If it passes, we should all work on this because next week something that you want to work on might be downvoted by someone else and we can't have people just protesting left, and centre. Now, if I want to brief with McDonald's and I know someone's a staunch vegetarian or vegan, I'm probably not going to put them on that account because they're not going to make their best work. But if people start protesting left, right and centre, it creates a real business issue for us that would come across as unprofessional to the clients.  

If it passes, it passes, we work on it. But what's great as the owner is it gives me some data. Because if I've got three briefs on the table and I can only respond to two, I will pick the ones that score higher. So if it's a 90% score, I'm like, that's a line to our purpose, throw the kitchen sink at it. If it's 52%, I'm like, oof, bit close. If we don't need the work, maybe I might decide to turn that one down. So it gives you kind of like data. about your alignment with your purpose, which is quite hard to come by. So it's really useful tool in that respect too. 

Louise Scodie 

Without mentioning names, as obviously the NABS podcast doesn't want to get you into trouble, can you tell us about a particularly contentious brief that came in, something that really got all of your collective heckles up?  

Tom Tapper 

In the past, before the Moral Compass, there were some obvious ones that came through from tobacco companies, sustainability reports, that sort of stuff, and they just got battered away. There's been some interesting ones over the last few years. And even during the pandemic, there were some real tough cases, mid-furlough, some of the team off. Brief comes through from a large social media company, and it failed the Moral Compass.  

And that was a real inflection point because we were like, and I didn't expect it to fail because we all rely on these businesses to kind of work. And it was an inflection point because I was like, I don't know about the ethics of this because some people are on furlough. If we say no to this, is that responsible? We kind of took it to the team. We were like, well, what should we do? And everyone was like, you've got to hold by that vote.  

As soon as people know, there's like a back door that you can like override a decision and the kind of response was like, it will go down we'll go down with our pride, we haven't sold out. So we held the vote and declined the work and luckily within two months everyone was rehired we were still working on stuff and and we can stand by the fact we've always upheld the results.  

Interestingly it wasn't like it was an oil company or whatever ,it was like a you know what I would call more of a grey area where it's not obviously bad, but I think the team obviously felt at that point in time that this business was not contributing to the world we want to see. So even if the brief was about sustainability, the business was judged as something, you know, not helping society at that point in time.  

So it's a really like, I personally voted that brief through, but the rest didn't. So it's really interesting when you're in that dynamic, how to manage it.  

But, you know, I think ultimately the impact on mental wellness and culture is that people are coming to work. They feel like they have a say on the briefs we work on, which I would argue is the biggest impact of an agency is who you work on. And as a result, I think that supports their mental wellbeing because they're working on briefs they want to work on. They've got a say on it. They've got a meaningful say. And you do more work you're passionate about. You make better work and you enjoy. That's what we're all in this industry for. 

Louise Scodie 

Absolutely, and you can all sleep at night, which is a very big thing. If people want to have a look at the Moral Compass, it's up on the website, isn't it? 

Tom Tapper 

Yeah, it's free. Anyone can use it. It's like the Moral Compass dot app. It's a free thing. Anyone can use it. 

Louise Scodie 

We'll pop a link in the show notes as well. Now, how does the advertising and marketing community lift you up? 

Tom Tapper 

It's despite what I was saying about how it's fundamentally a broken industry, as in the business model is challenging, right? But I almost wouldn't change it for the world in some respects. Like, it's such a privilege being part of this industry in that like the level of creativity that comes out from our industry year on year just keeps me interested in it.  

You know, following all the big publications, like seeing the work that's done. It's just inspiring. you know, and I would argue, you know, the British creative industry is one of the strongest creative industries in the world right now. You know, and it always boggles my mind, how you'll get a brief from what seems to be a pretty dull brand and you just get to this amazing creative treatment on it. And I think that's why I'm in this industry. It's what keeps me going.  

And I think it's important to make sure we don't lose that connection from the creativity that often got us into this sector. And I would say it's that that just keeps me, that lifts me up and keeps me energised to keep pushing our own work, doing better work, creating more of an impact. 

Louise Scodie 

Agreed, and that's why you got into it in the first place as well. 

Tom Tapper 

Yeah, I I believed that creativity had a role in communicating big environmental issues. So that's why I was in it. And that's what's kept me kind of interested. Like every day does feel different. Every brief is different. You're never doing the same thing twice. So yeah, it's a really inspiring industry to be in. 

Louise Scodie 

Fabulous. And what's the best lesson you've learned about how to support yourself? 

Tom Tapper 

I think probably going back to that moment I started, it's probably just asking for help before you hit the wall or hit the floor or whatever the metaphor is. I think ask for help early rather than just, we've got, I think culturally we still face a challenge as an industry where there's that pride of working hard, of working late. It's still there. It's still very much there in our culture. 

So the idea of asking for help before it's too late is still, it still requires a bit of courage and a bit of a leap. And I think I wish there were points in time where I just asked a bit earlier, because I could see where something was going, but I did the classic stay up all night, that sort of thing. So I would just say, yeah, ask for help, ask for help early, I think.  

And it's amazing when you do ask for help, people are so willing to support you, your colleagues, but you just have to lay it out and not feel like you're a failure, I think. And that's an ongoing challenge. I still feel the pressure of asking. 

Louise Scodie 

Well said, but it's so important to do that. It's something that we really believe in at NABS as well. So call us at any stage of your journey, but the earlier you call us, the more you'll be able to build yourself up for the challenges to come.  

Now it's time for the Q &A. I've never done one of these before, so I do hope everyone gets stuck in. Who would like to ask the wonderful Tom a question? Amazing question from this lovely lady over here. We've got a radio mic, on, I think. Thank you. 

Question 

Okay, hi. Thank you very much. It was really insightful. 

Louise Scodie 

Hang on a second, is the mic on? 

You can tell we haven't ever done this before. It's the inevitable surprise technical difficulties. Try again. Yeah, that's one. Okay, go for it. 

Question 

So was just saying, yeah, thank you so much. That was really insightful. So my name is Vanessa and I'm a cognitive behavioural therapist. And I'm particularly interested in wellbeing in the workplace. I was just wondering from your perspective, are there any particular initiatives that you've seen that have been really effective that does support wellbeing but then also helps company growth too? I feel like, Louise, I feel like your piece is just as well placed. 

Louise Scodie 

Good question. I am going to have a go but I'm going to let you go first. No pressure. 

Tom Tapper 

I mean, obviously NABS is fantastic. I've talked about the talk club thing, about getting kind of men together talking about their mental health. That was particularly, you know, had a big impact on me. You know, I'm also a fan. It's not really an initiative, maybe more of an approach, but I'm a big fan of like, a lot of us are in this industry because we're passionate about creativity.  

We have this thing called Nice Works where people are given roughly half a day a week to work on projects that are passionate about and I've seen a big impact of when my colleagues work on a project to do with mental health or creativity, sometimes like working through it and expressing themselves through their creative work for a charity, or cause, or you know a film or whatever, they're making can have a real impact on the people doing it.  

Like sometimes by exploring the issue and expressing ourselves creatively can really educate about a cause or an issue and when we, the team have tackled mental health through those Nice Works projects, I've seen a real impact on the team.  

Louise Scodie 

That's really interesting. That's kind of the opposite of people doing work that they're triggered by and for whatever reason feel they need to step away from the project. Actually what you found is sometimes people are able to get personal benefits out of a project if it touches on subjects such as mental wellness that are important to them. Really interesting.  

What I'd highlight is through NABS’s research, we had a big community consultation called All Ears, which we conducted last year and we found out often the key to mental wellness in the workplace, and as has been alluded to by some of the talks so far, people aren't leaving their jobs, they're leaving their managers or conversely staying because they absolutely love the people that they're working for.  

So we have launched our Managers Mindset programme, a holistic training programme to really help those managers have mental wellness conversations with their staff to understand how they can build open and empathetic cultures and also crucially how they can support their own mental wellness.  

We found that around 40% of people would go to their manager first, their line manager first, if they had a mental wellness issue, but only 19% of managers are actually being trained in this regard. So everyone knows how to do an appraisal, but they don't know how to have a conversation about someone's grieving, or they've got childcare problems or whatever it is.  

Because the truth is now people are dealing with all kinds of challenges. They've got their own personal challenges and whatever insane craziness is going on in the outside world as well. There's so much going on and you have to be able to talk about this stuff at work and managers need to be able to have those conversations and also to reach out for help themselves as well.  

So I would highlight that as a really important initiative that we're hoping can transform the culture for a lot of people in our industry. That's nabs.org.uk forward slash training 

My digital marketing manager and buddy Lewis is waving at me like, yes, you've got a web link in. And we'll also put that in the show notes afterwards as well. Right, who else would like to ask a question? 

Question 

Hello Tom, that was really interesting. I work for an independent creative agency at the moment, but I have been in a big network where we worked with lots of clients I didn't particularly like. Have you ever been in a situation where the Moral Compass has told you nobody wants to work on it, but you need to pay the salary bill? Has it been that kind of a, you know, when you're the owner of the agency, how does that played out for you? 

Tom Tapper 

Yeah, this is the fundamental challenge. Luckily, we haven't been in a situation, other than what I mentioned in COVID, where there was a real kind of tension point. Luckily, we haven't been in a situation where we have absolutely needed to take that brief. But it has undoubtedly impacted our profitability. We would be a more profitable agency had we taken some of those opportunities over the years, even several this year we've turned down. 

But I think it's also about trying to set up the business in a way where you're not reliant on those guerrilla clients, whatever the term is. Because obviously what happens, you take on a big brief, you need to staff up, and then you need to win the next big project like that. So you can really get on that hamster wheel. So we've consciously chosen not to do that, to grow quite organically, I would argue, more sustainably, grow slowly, ultimately. 

But yeah, but don't get me wrong, as the business owner, it can feel painful, especially if I disagree with the results. I'm just like, you know, you'll have a conversation in the morning about a pay rise and then it will fail the Moral Compass in the afternoon. I'm like, my God, you guys not see the connection here? So it can feel frustrating. But like I say, overall, I feel it creates more of like a concentration of your brand in a way. think taking those big projects aren't aligned with your vision and values means you're diluting your brand in a way.  

So I'm a big believer in over time, we will win out because I think we probably got a better reputation because people see that every project we do is aligned to our values. And we can put everything proudly on our website. We don't have to hide stuff behind the scenes because of that. So it's a longer-term play.  

But I could obviously see that, you know, if you were in a network, a bigger network agency, I could see that being a real challenge because you do have those hard profit targets and I know we run at a slightly lower profit rate because of often those decisions that we have to take.  

So yeah, it's a conscious decision but I don't think if you use a system like the Moral Compass I think you've also got to be realistic about your targets and accept that you might not meet the highest profit targets but I think you then you structure the agency around it and it's yeah. So there's ways you deal with it I think. 

Louise Scodie 

Thank you. Tom, to what extent do you think the Moral Compass helps with recruitment and retention? 

Tom Tapper 

It is, without doubt, is the thing that when we hire, people talk about. Like it is the one thing that seems to fascinate people, this idea that they can have a say on what they work on. It is fundamentally not that revolutionary, the idea that you might have a say in the main thing your business does. But I think it sends a real signal that the leadership is committed to the cause that we say.  

And I think we do have a little bit of a stereotype as agency owners that you're there, you want the exit to the big agency, you want to be on the golf course, schmoozing around at cans, that sort of stuff. So actually a big symbol like the Moral Compass says, we're different, we're about the work, we're about the impact. So I think it's a huge impact on, it's something that gets talked about all the time when people kind of come for a job interview and ask questions. 

Louise Scodie 

And do think you also attract a certain type of person who wants to work in that kind of framework? 

Tom Tapper 

Yeah, I would say that. I'm sure probably a lot of you find this as well. Especially the younger talent coming through, they want to work on, they want to use their creative skills for good. So it's a big, big talent attraction thing. And yeah, yeah. And again, that was not the intention, but it's one of the nice side effects of it. 

Louise Scodie 

This is what happens when you act in a good way, good things happen. Which is how you sum up this whole podcast. I think we've got time for a couple more questions. Yes sir. Sorry, we've got the mic coming to you. 

Tom Tapper 

I'm just wanting to know what your Ideal client would be and have you got any examples of it. 

Tom Tapper 

That's a great question. So actually, I've had my ideal client for the last five years has been Tony's Chocoloney. Do you know the chocolate company? 

Louise Scodie 

Yeah, they'd be my ideal client as well. I would eat those profits. 

Tom Tapper 

But I love just a great case where the product is good and the cause is also like and as a brand they properly believe in you know what they do. Like their whole business was set up to try and end slavery in cocoa, like it's just been structured around it for 20 years up by a journalist who tried to sue himself, I think was the original the origin story of it.  

Anyway like six weeks ago we landed a contract with them, which was like, I was so so happy but you know I think it was just one of those nice moments where... 

They were looking to a really interesting brief on how they communicate their impact beyond paying farmers a fair wage. And they'd heard about us because of a lot of the thought leadership stuff we put out around communicating sustainability.  

They asked me to give a talk there, and then the brief came off the back of that. So it just felt like, you know, when you've been trying to do something for ages and then someone recognises it, and it was just like the stars aligning for it. It wasn't the biggest in the world or whatever, but you know you just get those like real halo clients, whatever you want to call it, that you're just like, that was what I wanted to happen. 

Louise Scodie 

It's pretty magical, that story. 

Tom Tapper 

And you're like, but then also you're like, let's not fuck this up. You want to get the price right. But luckily, we did. And it was a really wicked project to work on. 

Louise Scodie 

I'm going to assume that nobody voted against that project. 

Tom Tapper 

That was like 95 % on the right one. So yeah. Wonderful. Good question. 

Louise Scodie 

I think we've got time for one or two more. Hello, yes. 

Question 

Thank so much for the session. It's been really valuable and really appreciate your vulnerabilities that you share, Tom. It's been really, really insightful. I'm sure many of us can resonate with what you've said as well, so thank you.  

And I wanted to ask, so I work with agencies supporting them with engagement and wellbeing for their staff through HR and coaching. And you mentioned that you've got 10 mental health first aiders at Nice and Serious. And some of the agencies I've worked with have found it quite difficult to bring in mental health first aiders. Sometimes people find it difficult to go to their peers and share their concerns. Or conversely, sometimes they're overwhelmed with concerns of years and that people have shared.  

And it would be great if you could share some of the learnings that you've had in terms of implementing mental health first aid in the agency.  

Tom Tapper 

And yeah, sorry, that's a really good question. And just sorry, it was about 10%. So it's about we've got 30 people. So it's about three people who've been training in mental health first aid. And then also the line managers get a certain degree of training as well.  

I can't speak in detail because it's been run by our managing director. But I think where I've seen the impact is where some of our team have an issue and they go to their line management and it's dealt with clearly and professionally, which is lovely to see when that support is there and you can see it having a positive impact.  

But the other thing as well, which is weird, we kind of changed recently is we've got an onboarding kind of playbook where any new joiner gets a deck which talks about the story of Nice and Serious and all of the benefits available. And we've really kind of bumped up the mental health piece in that, just to say like right from the start, you know, this is why we do it. Here's all the support available.  

So in that very first interaction, they know that it's part of our company. We're there if you need it. And just thinking about that whole journey rather than just like panicking and reacting when a fire happens. It's like you've made you put things in place that right from the start, you know, if you need it, it's there. Don't worry about it.  

And I think that was a more of a recent change, thinking about the whole kind of lifetime journey of an employee versus just like reaction, panic, quick, we haven't got a mentor or first aid, or someone get trained up, know, that sort of thing. you know, but it's, I mean, I should also say, it's a massive work in progress. I'm sure this is your line of work as well. You know, it's always evolving. We still have issues as well. It's not like, you know, it's not like we're all like floating around and everyone's happy.  

There are issues where, you know, and I'm sure you'll find this at the moment, like dealing with like hybrid working, changing work policies. We've just gone back to fixed two days in the office between Tuesday and Thursday. And even that caused a lot of issues because people had their own personal priorities. And you're trying to do the right thing for the agency, but it doesn't always work for individuals. So even that itself, we're constantly facing challenges and problems. It's not that they go away. It's just you have the systems in place to deal with the problems when they happen. 

Have I answered your question, have I just dodged it? 

Louise Scodie 

I think you answered it and you also added in some extra bits as well. That was a good answer. It makes me think of the time that we switched. Our different teams at NABS have different office days and I had to switch a whole load of things when we switched our office day, which was annoying. But then I thought, well, pre-pandemic, I was doing the nursery run and going into the office three days a week and that drove me insane. So, you know, maybe this is better. I'm not sure if that's massively helpful to have mentioned that. That was what was in my head. Have we got any more questions? I think we've got time for one more before we wrap up. 

No. OK, in which case, I would say it's been really delightful speaking with you. It's been brilliant doing it in front of an audience as well. So thank you all so much. And I want to thank you again for being so open and truthful about your experiences of parenthood and struggling, as well as being really inspiring about the way that you work with the agency and embed that kind of mental wellness approach and your ethical approach all the way through. So thank you so much, Tom Tapper. 

Tom Tapper 

Thanks for having me.